I’ve spent the evening making apple sauce and thinking about America. Growing up apple sauce was a seasonal thing, something, like roast potatoes and trifle inherently part of Christmas dinner. Apple sauce as snack, baking ingredient, regular supermarket stock, isn’t a particularly British thing, but we did eat plenty of stewed apple and there isn’t really much of a difference. I love cooked apple in all it’s forms and the idea of preserving local, organic apples and having apple sauce on hand ready to eat, is hugely appealing and something I probably wouldn’t have thought of without the Americans I’ve gotten to know online, and in real life.
America has also been on my mind today, after reading about the sad result of Maine’s election. Of course, equality and marriage rights are important always and everywhere (and the idea of allowing the majority to vote over minority rights is frankly terrifying), but visiting the US this year really hit home how important they are not just on principle but in very practical ways. At home marriage just isn’t such a big deal, of course lots of people choose to get married (and while the civil partnership name is problematic it’s viewed as marriage and has not caused the world to end), but it generally seems to be a choice that’s made for personal reasons. I know a great many people in long term, committed relationships who aren’t married, for a myriad of reasons, but the important thing is that, it isn’t necessary to them, although there are some rights that marriage grants here.
I was constantly surprised in America by just how many people I met who were married, who planned to get married, and who perceived marriage as important, normal and even necessary. At first I was pretty surprised by this, and as someone who spends quite so much time online and immersed in American culture as I do, I wasn’t expecting to find many unexpected cultural differences. And so I started asking questions, and the answers were revealing and consistent. Of course Americans get married for many of the same personal reasons as people at home do, but they also had far more practical reasons. Nowhere should who you love make you a second class citizen, but in America, this seems so much less abstract and so much more about practical realities. Which is making me sad today, and the childish comforts of apple sauce, isn’t going to fix that, but more people speaking out has got to help.
{ 72 comments… read them below or add one }
Well stated, Ysolda. I am here in Maine, and your post has hit home.
Ysolda, thank you for posting about this. It makes me sad to know that humans will still go into a voting booth and vote to deny other humans of their civil rights. I know that in time, this battle will be past and LOVE will prevail!
Many of my friends who are now marrying, are doing so for entirely practical reasons not the least of which is that if something happens to you, and you haven’t spent gobs of money paying lawyers to write up documents your partner has no rights to your belongings, cannot see you if you are very ill in the hospital and may not be considered the legal parent of children you have together (especially for same sex couples, but also for couples who have children from other relationships) Marriage automatically makes your partner your next of kin.
As far as I’m concerned,marriage is not about big floofy dresses and cake and grandma dancing to the hits of the 80s in a conventional hall, it’s about establishing a legal link between you and another adult you wish to commit to for life. The fact that people have taken this up as a religious issue is nonsense and I hate how people try to justify denying civil rights as some sort of expression of their own right to religion.
Amen. Nobody should be denied civil rights based on the gender of their partner. In my opinion, the whole system here is set up in such a bizarrely puritanical way – why should it be laborious and expensive to designate a next-of-kin of your own choosing? Or make clear who you want to make your medical decisions in the event of catastrophe? Or designate your partner as the parent of your child? Honestly, I think this stuff should all be affordable and accessible to everyone REGARDLESS of marriage, but marriage equality would be an excellent first step.
My partner and I are choosing to remain unmarried, and hiring a lawyer to safeguard our rights. That’s not a choice available to everyone. Stupid Maine. And California. And Oregon. :-(
Thank you, Ysolda, for posting on this subject. Denying rights based on whom one chooses to love is rather… barbaric.
I found your post lovely! While I absolutely agree that the government has no business defining what constitutes marriage, and it is a right that should be available to all adults, I’m curious about your comment, “the idea of allowing the majority to vote over minority rights is frankly terrifying”
I’m trying to think of what the alternative might be. Am I missing something obvious (and I am the first to admit this happens more than I care to admit!)?
Very well said, particularly about the frightening concept of majority votes on human rights. I feel fortunate that marriage rights are available to all couples in Canada. (Where the legal, paperwork part of marriage doesn’t seem to be quite as big a deal as it is in the U.S.)
On a less serious note…growing up, we always had a jar of applesauce in the fridge; it was usually brought out at dinner time alongside the HP sauce. :-) Very Dutch, I think.
I had a good friend of mine in Maine for the last two weeks trying to get people to vote against that stupid law! Needless to say she’s feeling very defeated right now. Though I’m proud of our joint homestate of Iowa having passed a same-sex marriage law this year.
Sadly in America people have a hard time seeing legal marriage as different from religious marriage and can’t understand that these laws are just protecting these people civil liberties and making their unions legally binding and will not affect whether their church has to okay same-sex marriage.
Interesting and well-stated post. It certainly makes you think about the cultural differences. I agree; marriage should be based on love, not necessity or gender.
Your observation about “allowing the majority to vote on minority rights” really struck me. It’s one of the things about being an American that makes me sad. Nice essay.
There are a lot of people over here who feel the same way today. I do not live in Maine, but I was sad to hear about it. And I fully agree, it IS sad to let the majority vote on the civil rights of the minority.
thank you, ysolda.
in a country where it is illegal to discriminate against people due to their race, age, religion, gender, or sexual orientation when making employment decisions, it is so utterly ridiculous that such discrimination is “appropriate” to apply to marriage laws. marriage, in the context of the laws recently overturned by voters here, is a LEGAL contract. people’s opinions about homosexuality should play absolutely no part in whether or not two individuals can sign a common legal contract granting certain rights to each other.
and, of course, beyond this… how is discrimination EVER justified? why can’t people let other people love who they want to love?
Well said, Ysolda. I hope that one day people can look beyond their prejudices and allow people who want to get married to do so without such a hassle.
As an American and a resident of Massachusetts, the first state in the US to legalize gay marriage, thanks for your post. It is a sad day. And it is truly remarkable that we are allowing people to vote on whether or not to grant civil rights to our citizens. I’m embarrassed for my country today. Where would we be today if the courts had allowed the people to vote on whether to desegregate schools in the 1960s?
Thank you, Ysolda, for your comments about America. Unfortunately, the Christian religion is so deeply intertwined in politics here that people must continually fight their way through the quagmire of biblical interpretations in order to gain any ground on what ought to be a fundamental right; i.e., marriage of same-sex couples. In short: I don’t get it!!!
Thanks for writing this… It seems as if every November we’re reminded of the blatant homophobia that simmers under the veneer of our culture. I was thinking about that this morning. I live in Austin, Texas, an island of progressive thinking in a sea of “red.” Frankly, Texas is about ten years behind everywhere else when it comes to progressive thinking and alienable rights for all.
Well said and I will continue to speak out against this.
Well, for one thing, America is the only country where people often get married so they can obtain their spouse’s health insurance coverage… but that’s an inflammatory topic for another day, I suppose. Considering in what high esteem we hold ourselves & our “great” country, it’s kind of amazing how backward we really are.
It is interesting to hear your perspective on this issue. It is very sad to see so many people come together to deny rights to others. Especially since granting those rights will not change those people’s lives at all! I do however think things will change for the better, eventually.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Thank you for offering an international perspective and for pointing out that civil partnerships have not caused the world to end. It’s a point I wish more people would hear. :)
Dear Ysolde ,
Thank you for the kind way you express your dismay at the Maine debacle.
Fascinating segue…
and, I would so steal your handcrafted applesauce in a heartbeat.
Well put, Ysolde! Especially the part about the majority getting to vote down the civil rights of minorities – where will it end? Shades of Nazi Germany! Senator Barney Frank of Massachusetts put it well when he asked “how does my relationship hurt YOUR marriage?”
Sigh. It’s a sad day when “the land of the free” has become the land of the bigots.
I’m a Californian, and a year ago, we as a state did something shameful and repealed the right of a large number of our citizens to marry. I’ve written about this on my blog, but as a woman in a marriage that would have been illegal in many parts of the U.S. within the last 50 years, I also find it alarming when the majority can decide on basic civil rights for the minority. It shocked me when I learned that it was not until the year 2000 that the last state constitution removed a ban on mixed race marriage, a ban that had been unenforceable for years, but still remained there, bigotry enshrined as a protest against progress. Worse, this archaic relic was overturned by only 60% of the voters. We cannot rely on the wisdom of the masses to grant rights to the minority.
Enjoy your applesauce! It looks lovely.
I’m waiting for someone to come on here and say you should stick to the knitting and stay out of the politics. I’ve seen it on other blogs, but your readers seem remarkably enlightened!
I live in the UK now but I’m from New Zealand which has the best marriage laws I know of. Anyone, not just gay people, can get a civil union – I know a straight couple who “converted” their marriage to a civil union because they felt it suited them better. Also, any couple that lives together for three years or more are basically seen as married under the law (it’s more complicated than that, but they are automatically entitled to half of their joint property should they split or one of them die, among other things). You can contract out of this, but it means you don’t have to contract in to a relationship. If it’s clear you are in a committed relationship the law treats you accordingly.
I absolutely agree….it just proves how far we still have to go. Sad…..
Also, your applesauce looks marvelous !
Thanks for the post,
Danna
I first attended a same sex wedding when I was 5 here in Wisconsin, and I was shocked to grow up and learn it was only a celebration, not an accepted marriage. Then I was shocked further to find out people thought these couples were bad, and that I would be made fun of if I said anything about them at school.
I’ve been living with my fiance for a few months now, and I’ve started to learn all of these things that make it necessary for us to get married as soon as we can, besides our desire to do so. This makes these votes even more sad.
Finally, after moving from Madison, where we had 20% participation at our high school in the Day of Silence – a protest against gay discrimination, I’m now in a very different college. A few weeks back, some students posted signs all over the floor saying “Join the Straight Alliance” with an X through the gay and lesbian symbols, and “excerpts” from the bible that stated all homosexuals should be killed.
Their punishment was to write an apology letter to the (straight) gay-straight alliance member who brought it to the attention of the director of housing. In their letter, they stated it was a joke – they didn’t realize it was offensive and didn’t mean to offend anyone.
How can there be such ignorance?
Anyway, thank you for posting your opinions! At least the hate crimes law was extended to include sexual orientation and gender.
We’re obviously still more than just a little bit Scottish here in New Zealand! As it seems to be for you, getting married/being married isn’t a big deal here either. One can get married, one can have a civil union (gay or straight), one can have kids out of wedlock (1/2 of my children fall into this category) and people just accept it and celebrate. After 2-3 years defacto couples are given basically the same rights as married couples. It’s all very laid back, and seems to work. Having said that, I am married now, but for no reason other than love and the existance of children. It’s the children I think, that were the tipping point.
Love your knits, by the way!
just to try to answer lyn’s question about majority votes on civil rights — in a constitutional democracy, rights should be constitutionally protected, and not subject to the whims of anyone. civil rights are inherent, not “granted”, thus they should not be revokable, by anyone. in canada, our rights are guaranteed by our charter of rights and freedoms. human rights may, in practical terms, be abridged or abrogated by government, but this is generally recognised as an abuse of those rights, not a denial that those rights exist.
and to the kiwis — i like canadian marriage laws. same-sex marriage, and common-law status for any cohabiting couple after 1 year, or the birth of a child.
‘Appelmoes’ is a staple food here in Holland too…
Yes, and America, like any country in the world, has people who just don’t ‘get’ it. And who get into power. And who then create a lot of problems and heartache for a lot of people. Shame… That is why it is so important to keep talking, communicating, and most importantly, voting!
Every time I heard about the issue of same-sex marriage in America, I tended to think: “What’s the big deal?”. But then, I actually went there and met some people (knitters actually…) and found out that most women my age were already married. I was more than surprised. None of my friends are married, even those who are older than I am. 4 of them (well, 3 different couples including 4 of my friends) contracted a civil partnership last year, for completely practical reasons, and they are all straight. Honestly, we do not consider them as being married, they are in a committed relationship, and needed the partnership for tax purposes…
There have been debates here in France about whether a civil partnership was enough for same sex couples, or whether they needed to be allowed to marry. The general consensus is “Why should same-sex couple want to get married anyway?” and it’s generally only left to that, with religious people stating that marriage is a sacred institution and you should not be messing with it. This, coming from a country where you can’t get married in church before getting a civil marriage.
But then again, like in Scotland, marriage is just not such a big deal. (or at least, among the people I know, who are mainly leftist students anyway…)
:) Apfelmuß was part of my childhood in Germany too… ooh it’s made me want to make some :)
I cannot formulate my thoughts on the Maine situation into coherant words. Like others here, I’m appalled and gobsmacked and like you saddened.
Dear Ysolda,
i hesitate to comment, because I love your blog so much and I don’t want to be considered as negative. But, I did want to say that there are those of us who feel differently about this issue. And yes, it is a religious issue, because we believe there is right and wrong in the world. on the other hand, that doesn’t mean that I hate people that are gay or avoid them. Rather it means I reach out in love to them (without condoning what I believe to be wrong sexual practices). It is possible to do that. :) Anyway, I know I am disagreeing with all your other commentors, but I did want to say that there are some people who think differently but still desire to be kind and loving to all people
religious idealogies really have no place within secular institutions. from my perspective, the difficulty occurs in the concepts ‘marriage’ & ‘civil partnership’. i find that the majority of my friends do not consider the concepts to be equal in the eyes of the law or as a social institution. for an otherwise ‘advanced’ society, americans are remarkably immature socially.
I think a civil partnership option would perhaps be just as badly received, but I think it is what the US needs. There are so many benefits, as you point out, to being legally married in the US, which are given to the privileged straight and withheld from same sex couples. Perhaps this would solve Heather L’s concern above. Marriage could remain discriminatory and inaccessible to some, but it would hold religious rather than civil rights import. The landscape of the fight would change. I respect Heather L’s position: she has a belief and is able to reach out in love rather than judgment. But the people in power are able to rescind civil rights. This is problematic. Do we believe that rights should be taken away from other groups because they are not or don’t do what we think they should? No (not anymore). Therefore, we should grant them the same rights as everyone else. It is interesting that other countries have found ways around this, as commenters above have described, but America chooses to still step on its self-righteous soapbox and tell people how they should be living.
Very thoughtful post. It is shame when people are deny rights to people they disagree with. There is something wrong with this cycle.
Anyway, love apples. I have been eating two a day. Do you have any tips for making apple cider less sweet?
Thank you for writing this, Ysolda. I live in Maine and I’m heartbroken at this outcome.
The weight placed on marriage really is amazing to me. I’ve been with my guy for 9 years now and the reactions we get to not being married are so strange to me. We’re committed to each other and plan on spending the rest of our lives together, but that is not enough to some people.
i’m right with you. in spite of our dodgy presbyterianism, scotland is a lot more open to individual choice than many, supposedly liberal, parts of the US. even the BNP haven’t got their claws into us as strong as they have england.
we’ve been planning a roadtrip around the US for years, but first bush, now this? really, for every step forwards (obama), there are another two backwards. literally.
love your lakeland apple gadget, too. must get me one of those. my dad’s dutch, so we did applesaus (spelled like that) growing up. easy enough with a peeler but i just love those spiral shapes!
actually, it was spelled appelsaus. i’m dyslexic. really.
A very thought provoking post. The Maine vote saddened me also but I have hope that things will change. As an earlier post noted,50 years ago my marriage would have been illegal (in fact there was a judge in Lousiana who still refuses to marry a mixed-race couple). Those that are for change have to keep pecking away at old ideals. I think the US is at a crossroads and those in fear of the future are going to go kicking and screaming.
“As far as I’m concerned,marriage is not about big floofy dresses and cake and grandma dancing to the hits of the 80s in a conventional hall, it’s about establishing a legal link between you and another adult you wish to commit to for life.”
And this is exactly why I am not an advocate for same-sex marriage. There are so many rights and privileges afforded people in the US who enter into a legal contract between themselves, one other person, and the state. That’s all well and good, but it leaves a lot of people out. Why shouldn’t we be able, as adults, to choose who we leave property to, who will be able to visit or make decisions for us in the hospital, who will take care of our children? Why is this restrictive model held up as the only way to function as a part of society. (I’m only speaking of the US here.)
As a big queer in a polyamorous relationship with two transpeople, I am so outside the realm of what is deemed “acceptable” that the discussion of “marriage” is completely irrelevant to my life, not to mention many of my friends. The main “right” that we, as adult citizens in this country, should have is the right to make our own decisions and to determine who makes those decisions for us if we are unable. I fail to understand why that must be linked to marriage at all, let alone completely intertwined with it.
(I will set aside the discussion of my anger and frustration with The Gay Agenda in the US and how sickening it is to see so much time, energy, and money wasted on an issue that will only benefit a tiny, incredibly privileged subset of the queer community.)
@Molly: Iowa didn’t pass any allow same-sex marriage legislation; it was a state surpreme court decision. They did choose to not fight the decision by altering their constitution — because ultimately, it was our equal rights/equal protection [state] constitutional right that made it legal and overturned all previous legislation banning same sex marriage (aka, the state’s 1998 DoMA). It’s not the same as Maine’s legislation-pushed legalization. I hope that they will overturn the people’s veto, as is the legislation’s right to do there.
I’m a frequent blog-reader and a shy commenter, but I felt compelled to say a little thank you for your thoughtful words. Our relationship to marriage in America is so curious — as a young woman in a committed straight relationship, I’m frequently asked if we’re “planning to get married” as though that is what will mean our relationship is legitimate. I live in California and still feel sad that discrimination won out over civil rights; it just plain sucks that that there is clearly so much more work to be done.
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I’m an American who is ashamed when people in our country act in fear and hatred of others, like with the vote in Maine. Marriage is such a HUGE thing in this country, I believe it’s part of a neo-Puritain movement that started a number of years ago, based in the “conservative Christian” base.
I simply do not understand how giving rights to other couples hurts hetero couples. And churches, as private religious institutions, will never be “forced” to marry anyone they choose not to (which seems to be part of the crazed fear about same-sex marriage) – but everyone who is *legally* married in this country is married under the law, whether or not they get married in a place of worship.
Actively supporting legal discrimination against same-sex couples makes me so sad and angry. I don’t get it. And I’m a Christian, so I really don’t get the “but it’s my faith” argument, either (I don’t see the argument stemming from the religion).
The government is not about faith, it is about equality and freedom. Ideally.
A couple of things about this post are so interesting to me. First, as a 30 year old American woman who spent some time studying in the United Kingdom, your view confirms for me something that I had long suspected – that Americans place a higher premium on formal marriage. Most of the couples I know, if not married already, are living together with a view toward marriage. It is very difficult for many people here to accept that people would want to be in a permanent committed relationship without state and religious sanction. And let me tell you, those attitudes make being a 30 year old coupled but unmarried woman pretty annoying.
Secondly, I think part of the reason marriage is not viewed as an abstract civil right here, but a much more concrete thing, is that it brings with it some crucial benefits. If one partner has excellent health coverage and the other none, marriage can be the only way to obtain health care for the uncovered partner. It’s a crime, but health care is not seen as a civil right here by many (I am lucky to have insurance through my job, but without it I would be practically uninsurable due to some minor pre-existing conditions. My only options at that point would be to find a new job with a large group policy, or to marry someone with a good policy – or just pray that I never got sick or injured ever again. I know a lot of people who have made their relationship official just for health coverage). There are also some tax benefits to marriage in some states, and it makes it much, much easier to obtain property financing, auto loans etc in the names of both partners if they are married.
And yes, for some reason we, the good people of the U.S., do have trouble separating religion from government (despite it being clearly written into our constitution). I am a Christian myself (if not a terribly devout one in terms of my church attendance) but I wish we could disentangle religion from government, particularly on the question of marriage. Then religious groups could perform marriages for their faithful, but any two consenting adults could obtain a civil marriage.
I’m from Canada and I must agree with your comments about marriage in North American. I personally have been one those women who has daydreamed about wedding dresses, but I do have friends who have planned out their weddings before they even had a groom. I think alot of the ‘marriage’ beliefs in North America are deeply rooted in religion (the primary religion being Catholic or some branch of catholism). I think there is also a belief that one’s life doesn’t begin until one is married. When I was pregnant with my 1st and 2nd child each time I was questioned about marriage and the general consensus was ‘I better get to it so my relationship will be more permanent’. My ex and I never did get married, and that is considered odd to many people.
Ysolda you have brought up an interesting topic and I image there is some graduate level thesis student working hard on marriage research. If not perhaps there soon will be.
a big hooray for preserved stewed apples!!! I am from Germany (where this is very popular as a snack or desert) and when I first moved to the UK I was really disappointed not being able to just find it in the supermarket but now that I live in the middle of the country side with 3 huge apple trees in my garden I can finally make my own and have been doing so for the last couple of years.
Such a timely and thoughtful post Ysolda, thankyou for sharing your thoughts. My partner is American and has basically had to give up her country to be with me as I’m British. She is from Idaho and had absolutely no rights there in terms of her sexuality, being fired from jobs and denied housing. When she got a proper job here in the UK and read the small print about not being discriminated against due to sexual orientation she cried.
It is still generally believed that as her partner I could live with her in some more liberal parts of the US, like Portland or San Francisco. However, as the decisions made by these states are guided by federal law and not civil law and it is the latter that makes decisions about immigaration then that is not the case. Most people do not realise this and are really shocked when this is pointed out to them.
We often wonder when this will change – and if it will – but we usually conclude that it is going to take a long long time…..
wow, this post made me feel alienated. call me provincial, but i do indeed believe marriage is important and normal. :/
I feel compelled to say a word or two on God’s behalf. Man has from the beginning tried living on their own terms. People feel more secure relying on themselves instead of God. No matter where we live there are those that are determined to push God aside and go about their own life styles. As Christians, we are expected to love all men but may not agree with self made laws. God allows us to make our decisions, it’s our right but God does make the final judgment for all of us whether you believe in Him or not. Politicians have no right to make religious decisions without following Gods word. It’s why the USA is in such a mess now. As a Bible based Christian I cannot agree with same sex marriage. The Scriptures are very clear, a topic that has been going on a thousand plus years. And yes, Gods word has been twisted and abused by many a man for their own benifit and I am sorry, because it makes it harder for those looking for the truth to believe in anything. There has been many degrees of pain and unhappiness among my family members on all levels and none of them believed in Gods word. I love them all, but God comes first…..
l metcalf, above, is a bit off her rocker i think.
but either way this post was wonderful. so thoughtful. thank you ysolda.
Food for thought from the United States Constitution:
Amendment XIV, Section 1: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
It never occurred to me that Americans might take marriage a little too seriously, but that makes sense when you consider our high rates of teen pregnancy and sexual conservatism in comparision to other Western countries.
L. Metcalf, you are everything that is wrong with American society and a disgrace to the founding fathers who did their best to separate religion from secular matters (like the civil institution of marriage).
Homosexuality is an important biological necessity. The Bible, if I can be so blunt, is a historically inaccurate, biased, mistranslated, and allegorical document. Do yourself a favor and consult a Bible group that studies in the original ancient Greek or Hebrew. Ask yourself, in Leviticus, why the word “shekab” refers to rape when the scripture discusses heterosexuals, but suddenly just means “man lying with man” in a single passage condemning homosexuality. You don’t find that curious? Wait until you get to “arsenokoites.”
This is all very interesting to me. I’m French and live with my partner of 10 years who is English. We live in Germany and have two boys together. I have been able to witness people’s opinion on marriage in the three countries. In France, over 1/2 of the kids are born out of wedlock, let’s just say that it’s totally normal and more and more people contract a civil partnership for practical and legal reasons. They don’t believe that marriage is necessary. Nobody there sees our own situation as strange at all. In the UK, I have experienced mixed reactions. From the my partner’s relatives, I have never heard any question in the style of “when are you going to get married?” or felt that we should be married. But, when I first got pregnant, a few of my British colleagues told me immediately: “when are you getting married?” They were actually quite puzzled when I told them we didn’t intend to get married because we were having a child. I have a feeling there are still a lot of Brits who believe that, when children are born, you got to get married. Now, let’s come to Germany! Here, every single German couple I know who has children is married! People always assume we are married because we have children and I am always called Frau (Mrs) … (my partner’s name)! That is actually pretty annoying to me! I have inquired about civil partnership here in Germany and have been told that it was only open to homosexuals (I think it’s wonderful they have that option), not to heterosexual couples, because they can get married! I wouldn’t go as far as saying I’m being discriminated for being heterosexual here, but I’m still blown away by this!
I am one of the aforementioned Christians getting slammed on the boards. Being afraid of being mocked, however, will never intimidate me into silence. Everyone has the right to give their opinion, and I am on L. Metcalf’s side.
It is regrettable to me that so many Christians get a ‘bad rap’ because they do have very hateful attitudes toward homosexuals. “They are going to hell!” etc., etc. This is not God’s way at all, which is first and foremost based on love. God has dictated that a man and a woman should be together, and also that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. These are not mutually exclusive terms. Our place as Christians is not to judge and hate, but to adhere to our values and try to teach, in love, to our fellow citizens the way God has intended our lives to be. If people in sin choose to follow a different path, I don’t judge or hate. I have plenty of my own sins to worry about. God is the ultimate judge and He’s the only one who truly knows our hearts. My homosexual friends know where I stand on this issue, and we’ve moved on. In my book, it’s wrong, it’s a sin, with the awareness of my many sins and with a non-judgmental attitude I’ve said my piece, and now it’s between them and God. End of story, and now we can get back to knitting.
I’m a Swede, and living in Sweden. Making apple sauce has been an important part of my upbringing too, maybe this is the case everywhere where there’s an abundance of apples during autumn?
In Sweden, we have had a tradition since the seventies to not marry but just live together, but that has caused a problem since the inheritance legislation doesn’t acknowledge these relationships (regardless if they are hetero- or homosexual), which is currently and vividly debated.
I will admit to living in Maine and being extremely embarrassed about the results of the vote. I don’t agree with the way in which the US views marriage, but who am I to tell anyone they cannot get married if they want to.
Thank you Ysolda. I completely agree. I have little patience for those who claim they are against equal rights for gay people on “religious” grounds. If the scripture is the basis for their politics, why aren’t they leading the charge to make divorce illegal? Or to make adultery punishable by jail time? Hmmm…. Seems to me that if they want to “defend” marriage, that might be a good place to start.
As a Mainer who was very emotionally involved in the No on 1 campaign (which was to keep gay marriage), your post made me cry.
[http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php]
I love baking anything with apples, fall being my favorite season. Apples are just so integral. Your pictures of those jars of homemade applesauce brought cheer to my day.
I’m echoing Sara, above: it was unexpectedly (I thought I was “over it”) touching to see your comment today (Friday). The defeat of the equal marriage idea was tough for many of us Mainers. . .but as many friends have reminded me, civil rights didn’t happen right away, either, but they happened. So on we go. Thanks for your words.
I am a Christian (nondenominational) in agreement with Lauren, not Julia. The infamous line about loving thy neighbor in Romans 13 actually concludes with, “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” My God has much more to say about those who invoke His hate when Jesus only spoke of love, than two adults of the same gender wanting to publically acknowledge the long-term potential of their relationship and legally protect their families.
Amen, Eliza. I am strongly in favor of same-sex marriage rights, but as a Christian, have other issues swirling around in my head. However, I think you’re spot on in emphasizing love over hate when it comes to working out issues of social and civil policy. I wish more Americans would be willing to do that – on both sides of the fence.
Thanks Ysolda for writing about this. The world of online knitting is way too heterosexist and people need an occasional kick up the ass.
There was a time in America when we used the Constitution and Declaration of Independence as guidance to create our laws, not the bible. Indeed that is what most advanced societies have done since the Enlightenment. These sorts of votes about issues that are blatantly enshrined in the constitution (and should never be put to the public in the first place) do nothing but placate the bigots and fool people into thinking they live in a genuine democracy. This is the system we are forcibly importing to the rest of the world through war and it’s good how? But whatever, I moved to the UK and I’m pretty pleased about that right now.
To anybody who hides behind the bible to justify their homophobia I have to ask: do you ever eat pork/shellfish, have sex before marriage, have sex during your period, do any kind of work on the sabbath? You can’t only pay attention to the rules god made that don’t affect your lifestyle.
Thank you for posting this, Ysolda. It’s nice to see that someone who writes such nice patterns also has a humane and empathetic attitude towards other.
i never commented in a journal of someone i don’t know in real live before but your post just said al the things i felt today. I’m dutch and i was extrordinairy proud of our country for being so openminded, gay marriage, abortion, ethaunasia laws etc. But lately thing seem to change for the worse …more violance in the streets against same sex couple etc. It makes me sad. I had so high hopes for my country and the rest of the world. I just hope that as always with great change some people struggle out of fear to keep things the same. And that in the end progress will winn.
Anyway not a cheerful reply but i hope the apple sauce cheered you up. I’m going to make some hot chocolate that helps a bit too
Yes, Americans value marriage. Allison (Nov. 5th, 2009; 8:03pm) gave a good explanation on why this is so. The anger directed at Americans in this post made me a little sad.
Yes, Americans value marriage. Allison (Nov. 5th, 2009; 8:03pm) gave a good explanation on why this is so. The negative judgement directed at Americans in this post made me a little sad.
it is always nice to hear your opinion coming from another-it’s part of humans being social people. It is however unfortunate that this can result in some points being drowned out by a crowd of affirmation. I really believe the discussion emphasis needs to highlight personal freedoms and rights. It is tragic that people in a long term relationships might not have the right to visit each other in hospital- or even be able to talk to the doctors, that an estranged or distant family members might have the only say in their care or decisions about life support. Really none of the legal rights of partnership need to be linked to a sexual relationship or any of the personal opinions of religion, ‘right’/'wrong’/'who cares they can do their thing and I’ll do mine’ – what happens if all your family is dead? You should still have the right to choose who you trust with your own wellbeing. I from NZ and I don’t think our laws are ideal yet.And they will likely never be- some find 3 years creeps up pretty quickly. There is as much variety in relationships as there are relationships.
So I would hope people of all religions and attitudes to marriage would be able to see that, independant from ‘sin’, sex, and relationships of all kinds, people die. Lives change and marriage laws and the rights of all individuals eventually become personal. I spent two really happy years of my childhood in the US. I really sorry that opinions expressed above and in other posts may have hurt some people’s feelings. It does seem true that Americans as a society value marriage more than here and so that makes it hard for people who want to get married for social reasons. But really the most pressing issue is people having the right to exchange legal rights and to have some say over their own body by being able to nominate who they want to be their ‘next of kin’ and for that (as an outsider) the PACS in France seems pretty neat
Oh dear, what a maelstrom!
For some reason my feed hasn’t been updating so I didn’t realise you’d posted in ages…
The US has always struck me as a little Puritanical – rule-abiding. Claiming one’s rules come from God is meant to give them finality – indisputability.
I think a lot of devout Americans fear that a separation of church and state will mean an admission of the irrelevance of religion. If you follow me. I mean, logically, if their religion is correct, then no separation is possible and the state SHOULD be a theocracy.
I suspect the hatred and intolerance grieves the heart of God, rather than pleasing him.
thanks for the post, ysolda. marriage becomes very important to some (me) when told that you cannot have it. i hope we can all get to the point when people can live their lives openly and without fear or hatred or even the dreaded “disapproval” from so-called “friends”. please people- the way i live my life does not influence your life at all. consider returning the favor.
As part of a couple that got married in California before they repealed the gay marriage laws, I too am saddened and frustrated by the election’s results. There was an editorial in our local paper yesterday explaining that, of course my being married to my wife doesn’t really damage any *current* marriages, but it has the potential to damage/belittle future marriages and so should be illegal. Based on that, shouldn’t Las Vegas’ 24-hour drive through marriage businesses be illegal? As far as I’m concerned, let “marriage” be the purview of the churches and make everyone, gay or straight, get a “civil partnership” or some other name in order to be legally responsible for each other.
I really fail to see why it is that I can legally marry a man, and if he gets sick and dies in the days following the wedding I would be the default inheritor with little or no taxes and I would have the ability to decide what treatment he did or did not get, but I cannot legally make the same choices for a woman I have been with for 11 years. If we had not paid to get medical powers-of-attorney written, her family (who hasn’t spoken to her in at least 5 years) would get to make all those decisions and would inherit (except for the fact that she has a will). As it is, the surviving (not legally married) partner could be taxed a huge percentage on any life insurance money and even on their home, depending on how it is owned.
If you don’t think gay marriage should be legal, or are uncertain what all the fuss is about, I recommend you read “Why You Should Give a Damn About Gay Marriage” which discusses the legal aspects of the issue, for the most part completely separate from the religious issue.
Either the US has changed a whole lot in the five years I’ve been away, or I lived in some sort of warped bit. I never felt any pressure towards marriage, and, in fact, never expected to marry. Two of my siblings are living with their (heterosexual) partners, and I know my sister, at least, has no plans to marry her partner of many years. The few close friends of mine who have married have done so for the most prosaic of reasons- health care, tax relief…
I like to think that the blue state/red state dichotomy is exaggerated and fabricated to be divisive, but then something like this makes me think maybe it’s not…I’m from San Francisco.
I was really touched by this post and really wanted to thank you for it. I am a firm believer that the American dream should not be witheld from any of our population based on who they love. I’m lucky enough to live in Seattle where we just passed a similar resolution to the one that Maine voted down, but I am so sad that there is so much discrimination thruout our country. As a minority, I thoroughly understand the effects of discrimination and detest it in any form.
Thanks for speaking out on this!!